I really like the clarity of your comments Chris.

Agree that interactions like conversations are complex, therefore an org is, but that doesn't make it a system.

Even though an org may be complicated, I don't think that makes it a system either.

Just the same even though an org is not a system, as removing a part does not kill it., and also people have their own motivations...the missing or injured part still has impact on the rest of the org...but we can have more ambient awareness with new social tools...all we can do is cope.

A photocopier is complicated like an org, but is also a system, But what I'm stuck on is that a complicated system like a photocopier, can still operate (inefficiently at best) with a missing part...but if the missing part is something essential like a carburetor in car, well then it can't operate.

Can this happen in an org? Can you take away a part of an org, leaving it inoperable...or will it always just be wounded?

I recall on one of Bas's posts that I commented on...complexity environments being subject to "unknowns"
http://basreus.nl/2009/11/03/systems-thinking/#comment-167

A photocopier is complicated as all parts are "known".

The interactions that happen in organisations contain "unknowns"

So a photocopier in of itself is "complicated", but it's used in a complex environment. Which has got me thinking about the "inside" "outside" aspect of this discussion

Patrick Lambe puts this nicely:
http://www.greenchameleon.com/thoughtpieces/autism.pdf

"Let’s look at a photocopier in an office with a service
agreement that allows parts to be changed whenever there’s a problem. Let’s say that the
photocopier suddenly starts a strange pattern of behaviour. It jams repeatedly every
Monday morning. Technicians come and replace the rollers, but it still happens, and it
happens every week. It’s clear that we don’t solve this problem simply by replacing parts.
It’s clear that something beyond the sum of parts is creating the problem.

The smart technician will start asking questions about habits of use. He might discover,
for example, that because of cost cutting measures, the airconditioning is now switched
off in the building over the weekend, the paper already in the machine expands from the
higher humidity, and it jams easily because the rollers are calibrated for thinner, dryer
sheets. He might also discover that the sales presentation meetings have been moved
from Fridays to Monday afternoons, placing added stress on the machine on Monday
mornings.

Understanding the science, and being able to label and replace components does little to
resolve problems that arise from social and human initiatives and changes. And most
knowledge and learning issues arise precisely from social and human initiatives and
changes."