Very recognizable Harold, also from my work with larger government bodies in Europe. Not just managers, many other roles too, who just never go out there to meet the stakeholders they are making decisions for or about. We've taken water quality people to talk to farmers while standing in a field next to a water course, they wrote many plans for but never went to see. I've brought together wildlife policy people to talk with hunters, who despite being in that role for years, never actually had such conversations. Most realise it as something valuable afterwards. My current work around data governance and data driven decisionmaking is also regularly just asking 'have you checked this data against reality?', 'did you go out there and see if that table of figures aligns well enough with what you see on the ground'?